Not for me they don't. I get a jumble of posts from all different times. I've tried this with several feeds, including my twitter rss feed, try adding and deleting several times. No joy.
Actually it is because, Jaiku search for new items from feeds at regular interval and fetch them from feed source, some time difference/delay definitely occurs for feed items, it is not for Jaiku posts, it is for just feed items.
I'm not sure I understand you. I'm not taking about delays, I'm talking about them coming in a jumbled order. Shouldn't I be seeing the posts in reverse chronological order, just as they were posted? The same RSS feed that works in my RSS reader, comes into Jaiku in a jumble. I'm in the US. Do I need to adjust my time zone setting or something?
I have posted a test post on Twitter, and after a minute on Jaiku, on Jaiku the jaiku post appeared instantly, but Twitter post still not fetched, I have to see in which order it places the posts. I mean which time it considers to order items, the time I posted on twitter, or the time Jaiku fetched from Twitter.
I have posted a test item, as soon as it is fetched from Twitter, I will get back to you. There is a timezone setting on Twitter, and I have set it properly, but I don't think there is any such setting on Jaiku.
I see that the items are grouped together but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to how they are grouped. The photo that shows up on top of the group is not the most recent and if you look at the group on the right of the profile, they are in completely random order. The same thing applies to my Twitter feed. This makes Jaiku useless for lifestreaming unless we can get it fixed. Do you work for Jaiku?
Yes, and I've experimented with other lifestreaming platforms. I've had the most success with Facebook's newsfeed and mini-feed. Because of the platform you can easily aggregate content from other social networks. However, I've yet to find a good solution for bringing RSS feeds into the mini-feed. You can also only export pieces of the newsfeed and mini-feed not the whole thing so it is not as open as I'd like. Plaxo Pulse is good too but the feeds seem a little slow to update. For me, Facebook is actually the best solution because that's where most of my friends are. I wanted to use Jaiku as a lifestream for those that aren't.
@lsherman: nevermind, got it. It's the sidebar when they're grouped that is out of order from what I can tell?
I've never before noticed that. Plus I note that they use the timestamp of the retrieval rather than the timestamp in the RSS feed. I'd say this is a bug :-D
Yes the sidebar and also the first post listed, for example the photograph of the synthesizer is a really old post, I would expect it to be the last one I took. the same thing is true of my posts from twitter.
The source won't matter in the slightest. If they're out of order for Flickr, then they will be for Twitter too. The fact that the synth is the photo used to 'preview' the grouping is just a result of them not being sorted and still just grabbing the first post as the 'preview' post.
They should be sorted, and
The newest post should be used to preview the group.
The order of the posts from the initial fetch of your feel is somewhat skewed. I'm not 100% sure as to why, but I'll find out and come back to you.
Subsequent fetches of feeds will only retrieve items that have been added since the last time we fetched (and we're working on increasing that frequency - in fact, I had some thoughts on that in the wee hours of this morning, and will be writing them up in a few minutes). Ultimately, you should have no more than an hour or so's items batched together - which mostly means that things like last.fm and flickr updates will be batched, while blog posts won't.
@BUGabundo: as I said in #wishku, the chances of that happening are infinitesimally small. Everyone will just set every feed to 1 minute.
The only way I can see that it could work is if you had a 'priority' setting.
Jaiku then decide how often to poll everyone's feeds (say 10 pulls per hour) then they split that up between priorities. So if you had two feeds, one at priority '1' and the other at priority '9', then the first would be updated 9 times per hour and the second once per hour.
If your two feeds were both at priority '1', then they'd both get updated 5 times per hour. If you had 20 feeds, all at the same priority, then they'd all be updated once every two hours.
@malach, so it sounds like for now I should add all of the feeds I want and let things shake themselves out for a few days? Please do let me know if you find out why they are coming in as they do on the initial fetch and if there's anything you can do to fix that on your end. thanks.
I think Jaiku should use the time of original post, as the criteria of sorting, instead of time the item(s) fetched from the feed. However, you can also give an option to the user to choose sorting criteria.
absolutely it should be the original-post time from the RSS. I don't think an option is needed as the current 'order' is just whatever random order jaiku's system is returning
@malach, it looked like things were sorting themselves out. I was seeing the most recent posts so I went in and deleted old posts but it is refetching the old ones again. What a mess! Not very encouraging.
@malach, well, I'd just like to get this to work properly. Can't see how deleting them would hurt if what you said about subsequent fetches only adding what's been added since they were last fetched is true. Clearly that's not what's happening as I delete them and they come back on subsequent fetches. Something is definitely broken on your end.
I apologise for not giving you a 100% accurate technical description.
Under normal circumstances, when we fetch a feed, we check to see if it has been modified since we last fetched it. If it hasn't, we don't fetch it again (since there's no need to).
If it has, we re-download, and add those items found in the feed that we haven't already got recorded.
If someone has altered what's in our database (for example, by deleting information that was fetched previously), then yes, items will be re-added the next time they are fetched.
@malach, I will leave the feeds alone until I hear back from you but I do hope you can figure out what's wrong. In its current state, this feature is useless to me and as I am trying to decide whether to stick with Twitter or move to Jaiku or Pownce, it doesn't bode well for Jaiku. I like the ability to hold threaded conversations here but Pownce has that also and the implementation (being able to group friends) is a bit better.
Don't be silly. Twitter doesn't offer ANY of the features that have problems at Jaiku, so you're a lot closer to having them working here.
You found an issue about 36 hours ago from memory .. you expect way too much if you think everything will get fixed that fast. Jaiku tend to be fairly fast to fix genuine bugs, and is about the only place where you get such active interaction with official sources such as @malach (who is a sysadmin type, not a developer)
This one is a slight annoyance to 2% of Jaiku users and unnoticed by 98% .. but it's a deal breaker to you?
If another service (such as pownce) provided everything you needed, you wouldn't bother complaining here, you'd just move. But of course it doesn't do everything you want in exactly the way you want. So sit down and wait your turn.
(Just in case it needs clarifying: I don't work for Jaiku, so don't get pissed at them if you find me offensive)
Actually this problem has been going on since I joined Jaiku a week and two days ago and I only got a response from Jaiku support 36 hours ago after you first weighed in (not too impressive sorry). I have been a tech journalist for over 15 years and am fairly sure I've worked through more technical problems than you have over the years so I resent your implication that I am some kind of crybaby looking for a quick fix. I'm not sure where you get your statistics from (2% vs 98% but I expect they came from somewhere unmentionable in a public forum). I never said I was bailing on Jaiku just yet. However, for the record, if I want RSS feeds in Twitter, there's twitterfeed.com.
And there are plenty of other services with active online real-time tech support. In fact this is becoming the norm, not the exception.
I appreciate the help you personally provided earlier but I have to say I really don't see where you get off jumping in and telling me to "wait my turn". Not really your business is it?
All of these services are in a nascent stage and I believe their feature sets will come together over time. Then it will be a matter of which one achieves critical mass, provides the best interface, and the best tech support and customer service. Right now I support all of them equally.
Jeez man, I complain about a feature that doesn't work and you jump all over me. I would hope and I truly think @malach is more interested in fixing it than in getting into a fight with a user.
@zoetrope, the "doesn't bode well for Jaiku" comment was a personal one, reflective of the way I would like to use the service. If you don't care about RSS feeds or lifestreaming that's your business. But I see it as a key differentiator for Jaiku and think it would really benefit them to get it working.
This thread started just over 36 hours ago. It's the first time I saw it. Even then it took a bit of too-ing and fro-ing before anyone understood what you were talking about.
Once we understood what you were talking about it took @malach all of one hour to notice and respond
Pulling out your 'Tech Journalist' credentials will get you absolutely nowhere with developers. While you've been writing about tech problems I'm the one that's actually working through them. All day everyday.
You are a cry baby. Ever since we worked out what on earth you were talking about you've been hassling for a fix every couple of hours.
If you're a journalist, you'd know that 90% of all statistics are made up .. including the 98/2 .. but the 2% was generously based on the number of complaints I've seen about the issue, so let's call it an educated guestimate.
If you want a third party solution, like twitterfeed.com, it wouldn't be hard for someone to do. Excepts it's pointless. Just have some patience already!
Telling you to wait your turn is me being an active member of this community. I have as much place telling you to wait your turn as you do demanding things get fixed.
Sure, @malach may be more interested in fixing it (though as I said before, he's a sysadmin-type), but I'm not @malach.
On a lighter note: Jaiku goes into beta mode when it's off the air. For some strange reason their icon changes to a blue "Jaiku Beta" icon when the 'of the air' message is shown!
@lsherman:Ahhh... indeed I care about RSS and lifestreaming, but perhaps I just don't expect too much of things that are a: in infancy, and b: free. I'm still in the early stage of 'I love it, it works'
(This is right about the time my unsubscribe-from-thread wish gets re-emphasised .. I've wasted enough brain cells on this already, but don't want to have to delete my comments. Maybe I should just keep hassling every couple of hours until my wish is fulfilled)
While I'm not the person who decides the priorities of our developers, I'd like to think that I have some idea about what the team's priorities are.
In very broad strokes:
The highest priority, I think it's fair to say, goes to things that aren't working at all. (commonly referred to as 'all hands on deck!')
Below that come improvements to things that aren't working right/perfectly that impact all or a significant majority of our users.
After that come improvements to things that aren't working right/perfectly that impact on a comparatively small number of users.
I'm sure you'd agree that this is a sensible order to work on things in, no?
The first time I was made aware of the problem you reported was by you - and our feeds have been operating in a similar manner for some time now, so I think it's fair to say that this issue falls into the third category.
Now, if it turns out to be a trivial fix (and these things often do), it may well get carried out relatively quickly. If it turns out to be something that requires allocation of a larger amount of developer resource, then it will probably be somewhere down the list.
Lee, I don't think people are objecting to you raising the issue - or even your initial (today) re-raise of it. What I believe people might be objecting to is that you seem (to me at least) to be trying to be 'the squeaky wheel', trying to raise your voice so that the problem that you're bugged by has more visibility than those that bug everyone else.
Everyone here (both staff and users) has their own little list of things they'd like fixed/changed/improved (see #wishku if you're interested in a partial list), but the vast majority of users are quite aware that we're not going to rush headlong into changes, that we're mostly concerned with keeping the service running, and running well, and that improvements and fixes happen in their own good time.
"If someone has altered what's in our database (for example, by deleting information that was fetched previously), then yes, items will be re-added the next time they are fetched."
Shouldnt it just ADD new info, instead of the one that is missing?
@BUGabundo - it's possible that it should, but if the older information is no longer available for our system to refer to, how do we know what's old and what's new?
Which brings us back to Lee's original problem - posts being out of order seems likely, to me, to be related the way we're handling/honoring the post-date information in the feed.
@malach, I don't know where this idea that I've been unpatient and demanding has come from frankly. I've merely asked a couple of times what I should do next and if you've mangaged to make any progress. The whole thing has really been blown at of proportion as evidenced by the number of comments here. My point in pulling out my "tech journalist" credentials wasn't bragging. In fact, quite the opposite, I have been here before and I am more than willing to go through the process with you for however long it takes. I never said otherwise. How does my raising the issue and conducting a conversation about it make me a "squeaky wheel?" I never said my needs should be considered above and beyond anyone elses. This is no different than dealing with countless bugs in software that I've encountered over the years. I'm merely trying to work through a problem with tech support. @RickMeesham has overreacted and cast aspirations upon me that are completely unfounded. I'm not even sure what his relationship to Jaiku is other than being a member of the community but he sure has a strong emotional attachment to it. And what was so gosh darn difficult about figuring out what I was talking about? It was plain as day that the feeds were coming in out of order. Anyone could see that immediately. Your last response is perfectly reasonable. Let's see continue to see how this goes.
@lsherman: Yup, I regret declaring you to be a cry-baby. I retaliated in an emotional way to your assumption that as a writer you'd seen more tech problems than I had without even attempting to check my credentials. Accept my apologies.
You're being seen as a squeaky wheel because you're posting frequently, asking for updates and using phrases that are 'squeeks'. Phrases that my English-teacher-wife would call emotive language: "what a mess", "doesn't bode well", "feature is useless".
The reason I weighed into this in a manner that you feel was an over-reaction is primarily because I can't stand the stupid "fix it or I'm leaving" threat. That and I'm protective of other developers.
So let's just bury the hatchet, wait for the Jaiku dev team to take a look, and see where things go.
(My wife would also point out that you should be accusing me of 'casting aspersions' not 'casting aspirations', which means to cast strong desires to achieve something great .. which now I think about it would probably fit well in a D&D game. I'm guessing, as a writer, you know that and it was a hasty typo, so don't take this as any sort of attack)
@BUGabundo: I'm guessing that was an attempt at humor .. it doesn't work in real life and it doesn't work here. If two people are fired up at each other, you just need to give them space to sort it out between themselves.
@RickMeashem: yes should have been aspersions. Quite early here in SF and I haven't had my tea yet. Apologize for the emotive language. I am a writer after all. You're right actually and I'll back off on that. And for the record, even if the RSS thing doesn't get fixed, I'm more likely to just remove it than leave Jaiku entirely. Even without that it has many advantages over Twitter and Pownce, at least at this stage of the game.
@RickMeasham: As a technology journalist and early adopter,I do see many tech problems, perhaps not as many as you but I value my relationships with developers and have generally had good ones over the years. I have beta tested countless products and services so I'm quite familiar with this process and willing to see it through.
Way back in the mists of time (ie, early this year), before we were grouping entries, we were getting complaints from users about feed entries 'not appearing'. What this turned out to mean was that because entries were inserted into the overall timeline at the time they were posted on the originating site (ie, we were honoring the 'posted-at' field in the feed), that they appeared further back in the Jaiku timeline - sometimes, particularly for users who are either really active, or have a lot of contacts, not on the front page.
Because RSS is a pull, not a push method, there's no reliable way to get them them to appear on Jaiku immediately after posting.
Our solution for that, was to set the 'posted at' date to be the time at which it was fetched by us- this means that even if there are multiple hours between the time a post is made, and the time we fetch it, it will still appear on people's overviews.
(You'll note that while your Jaikus say "By lsherman 1 day, 2 hours ago", your feed items say "Fetched from del.icio.us/lsherman 4 hours, 26 minutes ago.").
The downside to this (which this issue has highlighted) is that grouped posts lose their order - their 'posted at' time is lost.
The fix for this involves some database structure changes, which can't be done while the site is live. Because of the amount of data involved, the structure changes would take a significant amount of time to carry out, so this is something that will have to be scheduled as part of an announced outage.
And, to answer your recent question, we don't remove posts of any sort - they just keep going back in time. We do, however, limit how far you can 'scroll' back.
It's definitely not working right, so yes, it's something needs to be made to work right..
When, exactly, I can't tell you - for one thing, we haven't got it officially onto the roadmap yet, for another, we don't tend to talk about what's coming until it's arrived.
80 comments so far
RSS feeds show up in chronological order, you can try Yahoo pipes, to change the order of feed items.
2 years, 2 months ago by gauravkanoongo
Not for me they don't. I get a jumble of posts from all different times. I've tried this with several feeds, including my twitter rss feed, try adding and deleting several times. No joy.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
Actually it is because, Jaiku search for new items from feeds at regular interval and fetch them from feed source, some time difference/delay definitely occurs for feed items, it is not for Jaiku posts, it is for just feed items.
2 years, 2 months ago by gauravkanoongo
I'm not sure I understand you. I'm not taking about delays, I'm talking about them coming in a jumbled order. Shouldn't I be seeing the posts in reverse chronological order, just as they were posted? The same RSS feed that works in my RSS reader, comes into Jaiku in a jumble. I'm in the US. Do I need to adjust my time zone setting or something?
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
jaiku binds all new items for a feed source. u should see them as a group. have a look at my profile.
2 years, 2 months ago by BUGabundo
I have posted a test post on Twitter, and after a minute on Jaiku, on Jaiku the jaiku post appeared instantly, but Twitter post still not fetched, I have to see in which order it places the posts. I mean which time it considers to order items, the time I posted on twitter, or the time Jaiku fetched from Twitter.
2 years, 2 months ago by gauravkanoongo
If you are willing, perhaps I could add a feed or two and you could take a look at my profile.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
I have posted a test item, as soon as it is fetched from Twitter, I will get back to you. There is a timezone setting on Twitter, and I have set it properly, but I don't think there is any such setting on Jaiku.
2 years, 2 months ago by gauravkanoongo
I see that the items are grouped together but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to how they are grouped. The photo that shows up on top of the group is not the most recent and if you look at the group on the right of the profile, they are in completely random order. The same thing applies to my Twitter feed. This makes Jaiku useless for lifestreaming unless we can get it fixed. Do you work for Jaiku?
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
I do not work for Jaiku.
I agree with your views on order of items, fetched from different feed sources.
Let us see, what they do to tackle this problem.
2 years, 2 months ago by gauravkanoongo
If they do. I haven't been able to get anyone from Jaiku to respond. The weird thing is that others don't seem to be having this problem.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
Have you seen http://tumblr.com ?
2 years, 2 months ago by gauravkanoongo
Yes, and I've experimented with other lifestreaming platforms. I've had the most success with Facebook's newsfeed and mini-feed. Because of the platform you can easily aggregate content from other social networks. However, I've yet to find a good solution for bringing RSS feeds into the mini-feed. You can also only export pieces of the newsfeed and mini-feed not the whole thing so it is not as open as I'd like. Plaxo Pulse is good too but the feeds seem a little slow to update. For me, Facebook is actually the best solution because that's where most of my friends are. I wanted to use Jaiku as a lifestream for those that aren't.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
@Isherman: Do you have an example URL that you can show where they're not in chronological order?
(I too do not work for Jaiku, but @malach will probably see this soon. If we still can't get it sorted, best to email bugs@jaiku.com)
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
@lsherman: nevermind, got it. It's the sidebar when they're grouped that is out of order from what I can tell?
I've never before noticed that. Plus I note that they use the timestamp of the retrieval rather than the timestamp in the RSS feed. I'd say this is a bug :-D
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
Yes the sidebar and also the first post listed, for example the photograph of the synthesizer is a really old post, I would expect it to be the last one I took. the same thing is true of my posts from twitter.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
The source won't matter in the slightest. If they're out of order for Flickr, then they will be for Twitter too. The fact that the synth is the photo used to 'preview' the grouping is just a result of them not being sorted and still just grabbing the first post as the 'preview' post.
They should be sorted, and The newest post should be used to preview the group.
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
Thanks for your help, hopefully @malach will weigh in soon.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
The order of the posts from the initial fetch of your feel is somewhat skewed. I'm not 100% sure as to why, but I'll find out and come back to you.
Subsequent fetches of feeds will only retrieve items that have been added since the last time we fetched (and we're working on increasing that frequency - in fact, I had some thoughts on that in the wee hours of this morning, and will be writing them up in a few minutes). Ultimately, you should have no more than an hour or so's items batched together - which mostly means that things like last.fm and flickr updates will be batched, while blog posts won't.
2 years, 2 months ago by malach
what we really need is an option to set how long should the fetch be
2 years, 2 months ago by BUGabundo
@BUGabundo: as I said in #wishku, the chances of that happening are infinitesimally small. Everyone will just set every feed to 1 minute.
The only way I can see that it could work is if you had a 'priority' setting.
Jaiku then decide how often to poll everyone's feeds (say 10 pulls per hour) then they split that up between priorities. So if you had two feeds, one at priority '1' and the other at priority '9', then the first would be updated 9 times per hour and the second once per hour.
If your two feeds were both at priority '1', then they'd both get updated 5 times per hour. If you had 20 feeds, all at the same priority, then they'd all be updated once every two hours.
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
@malach, so it sounds like for now I should add all of the feeds I want and let things shake themselves out for a few days? Please do let me know if you find out why they are coming in as they do on the initial fetch and if there's anything you can do to fix that on your end. thanks.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
I think Jaiku should use the time of original post, as the criteria of sorting, instead of time the item(s) fetched from the feed. However, you can also give an option to the user to choose sorting criteria.
2 years, 2 months ago by gauravkanoongo
absolutely it should be the original-post time from the RSS. I don't think an option is needed as the current 'order' is just whatever random order jaiku's system is returning
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
Whatever Plaxo Pulse is doing is the right thing to do.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
What is the standard time-period for Jaiku to renew individual feeds? 30 mins?
2 years, 2 months ago by hypocrisy
@malach any idea yet what is causing the problem? I'm still seeing jumbled posts.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
Not as yet, no.
2 years, 2 months ago by malach
@malach, it looked like things were sorting themselves out. I was seeing the most recent posts so I went in and deleted old posts but it is refetching the old ones again. What a mess! Not very encouraging.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
Things might work better if you stopped trying to 'fix' them, perhaps?
2 years, 2 months ago by malach
@malach, well, I'd just like to get this to work properly. Can't see how deleting them would hurt if what you said about subsequent fetches only adding what's been added since they were last fetched is true. Clearly that's not what's happening as I delete them and they come back on subsequent fetches. Something is definitely broken on your end.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
I apologise for not giving you a 100% accurate technical description.
Under normal circumstances, when we fetch a feed, we check to see if it has been modified since we last fetched it. If it hasn't, we don't fetch it again (since there's no need to).
If it has, we re-download, and add those items found in the feed that we haven't already got recorded.
If someone has altered what's in our database (for example, by deleting information that was fetched previously), then yes, items will be re-added the next time they are fetched.
2 years, 2 months ago by malach
@malach, I will leave the feeds alone until I hear back from you but I do hope you can figure out what's wrong. In its current state, this feature is useless to me and as I am trying to decide whether to stick with Twitter or move to Jaiku or Pownce, it doesn't bode well for Jaiku. I like the ability to hold threaded conversations here but Pownce has that also and the implementation (being able to group friends) is a bit better.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
Don't be silly. Twitter doesn't offer ANY of the features that have problems at Jaiku, so you're a lot closer to having them working here.
You found an issue about 36 hours ago from memory .. you expect way too much if you think everything will get fixed that fast. Jaiku tend to be fairly fast to fix genuine bugs, and is about the only place where you get such active interaction with official sources such as @malach (who is a sysadmin type, not a developer)
This one is a slight annoyance to 2% of Jaiku users and unnoticed by 98% .. but it's a deal breaker to you?
If another service (such as pownce) provided everything you needed, you wouldn't bother complaining here, you'd just move. But of course it doesn't do everything you want in exactly the way you want. So sit down and wait your turn.
(Just in case it needs clarifying: I don't work for Jaiku, so don't get pissed at them if you find me offensive)
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
I heart @RickMeasham.
2 years, 2 months ago by CaffeineJunky
Actually this problem has been going on since I joined Jaiku a week and two days ago and I only got a response from Jaiku support 36 hours ago after you first weighed in (not too impressive sorry). I have been a tech journalist for over 15 years and am fairly sure I've worked through more technical problems than you have over the years so I resent your implication that I am some kind of crybaby looking for a quick fix. I'm not sure where you get your statistics from (2% vs 98% but I expect they came from somewhere unmentionable in a public forum). I never said I was bailing on Jaiku just yet. However, for the record, if I want RSS feeds in Twitter, there's twitterfeed.com.
And there are plenty of other services with active online real-time tech support. In fact this is becoming the norm, not the exception.
I appreciate the help you personally provided earlier but I have to say I really don't see where you get off jumping in and telling me to "wait my turn". Not really your business is it?
All of these services are in a nascent stage and I believe their feature sets will come together over time. Then it will be a matter of which one achieves critical mass, provides the best interface, and the best tech support and customer service. Right now I support all of them equally.
Jeez man, I complain about a feature that doesn't work and you jump all over me. I would hope and I truly think @malach is more interested in fixing it than in getting into a fight with a user.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
'it doesn't bode well for Jaiku'? Awwww, I don't know about that.
I think Rick got it completely right. I'm in the 98% obviously.
2 years, 2 months ago by zoetrope
jaiku Ohh Don't fight guys... everyone know there is a problem and I hope they will fix it. :)
2 years, 2 months ago by gauravkanoongo
One more thing, last time I checked Jaiku wasn't in beta so my expectation that an advertised feature should work is perfectly acceptable.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
@zoetrope, the "doesn't bode well for Jaiku" comment was a personal one, reflective of the way I would like to use the service. If you don't care about RSS feeds or lifestreaming that's your business. But I see it as a key differentiator for Jaiku and think it would really benefit them to get it working.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
greek numerals lost their appeal in this day and age. shares tea & cookies with all :)
2 years, 2 months ago by cervus
This thread started just over 36 hours ago. It's the first time I saw it. Even then it took a bit of too-ing and fro-ing before anyone understood what you were talking about.
Once we understood what you were talking about it took @malach all of one hour to notice and respond
Pulling out your 'Tech Journalist' credentials will get you absolutely nowhere with developers. While you've been writing about tech problems I'm the one that's actually working through them. All day everyday.
You are a cry baby. Ever since we worked out what on earth you were talking about you've been hassling for a fix every couple of hours.
If you're a journalist, you'd know that 90% of all statistics are made up .. including the 98/2 .. but the 2% was generously based on the number of complaints I've seen about the issue, so let's call it an educated guestimate.
If you want a third party solution, like twitterfeed.com, it wouldn't be hard for someone to do. Excepts it's pointless. Just have some patience already!
Telling you to wait your turn is me being an active member of this community. I have as much place telling you to wait your turn as you do demanding things get fixed.
Sure, @malach may be more interested in fixing it (though as I said before, he's a sysadmin-type), but I'm not @malach.
On a lighter note: Jaiku goes into beta mode when it's off the air. For some strange reason their icon changes to a blue "Jaiku Beta" icon when the 'of the air' message is shown!
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
@lsherman:Ahhh... indeed I care about RSS and lifestreaming, but perhaps I just don't expect too much of things that are a: in infancy, and b: free. I'm still in the early stage of 'I love it, it works'
2 years, 2 months ago by zoetrope
/me takes all @cervus' tea and cookies and runs off behind the bike shed to scoff them all
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
(This is right about the time my unsubscribe-from-thread wish gets re-emphasised .. I've wasted enough brain cells on this already, but don't want to have to delete my comments. Maybe I should just keep hassling every couple of hours until my wish is fulfilled)
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
Again, Rick, you are my newest crush of the week and your patience is above and beyond reproach. In CaffeineJunky's terms, you fucking rock man.
2 years, 2 months ago by CaffeineJunky
Well, there goes Rick, off to be struck down by a meteorite I expect. Damn, he was Prime Minister material too.
2 years, 2 months ago by zoetrope
@CaffeineJunky: you have Jaiku crushes too? Me too! ;) (Now what's the word for that? Crushkus?)
2 years, 2 months ago by pirita
While I'm not the person who decides the priorities of our developers, I'd like to think that I have some idea about what the team's priorities are.
In very broad strokes:
The highest priority, I think it's fair to say, goes to things that aren't working at all. (commonly referred to as 'all hands on deck!')
Below that come improvements to things that aren't working right/perfectly that impact all or a significant majority of our users.
After that come improvements to things that aren't working right/perfectly that impact on a comparatively small number of users.
I'm sure you'd agree that this is a sensible order to work on things in, no?
The first time I was made aware of the problem you reported was by you - and our feeds have been operating in a similar manner for some time now, so I think it's fair to say that this issue falls into the third category.
Now, if it turns out to be a trivial fix (and these things often do), it may well get carried out relatively quickly. If it turns out to be something that requires allocation of a larger amount of developer resource, then it will probably be somewhere down the list.
Lee, I don't think people are objecting to you raising the issue - or even your initial (today) re-raise of it. What I believe people might be objecting to is that you seem (to me at least) to be trying to be 'the squeaky wheel', trying to raise your voice so that the problem that you're bugged by has more visibility than those that bug everyone else.
Everyone here (both staff and users) has their own little list of things they'd like fixed/changed/improved (see #wishku if you're interested in a partial list), but the vast majority of users are quite aware that we're not going to rush headlong into changes, that we're mostly concerned with keeping the service running, and running well, and that improvements and fixes happen in their own good time.
2 years, 2 months ago by malach
@pirita: Yes, I would say I have Crushkus.....and Rick is one of them right now..... :D I think I've embarrassed him though.
2 years, 2 months ago by CaffeineJunky
@CaffeineJunky: @whatleydude has been so far my only Crushku ;) Well, maybe there is someone else too...but not on the Crushku stage yet lol
2 years, 2 months ago by pirita
blushes
2 years, 2 months ago by whatleydude
I'm not going to kiss and tell....but dearest Whatley is rather huggable.
2 years, 2 months ago by CaffeineJunky
@piri i'd suggest jaikrush :)
2 years, 2 months ago by cervus
@cervus: Works too :)
2 years, 2 months ago by pirita
oh and I'd like to add cervus to the mix as well, he's rather cute :D. Hi, cervus :D
2 years, 2 months ago by CaffeineJunky
@caffeinejunky nothing wrong with hug and tell right?
2 years, 2 months ago by cybette
I think we all have a bit of a crush on @cervus
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
@cybette: Exactly!! and only on Jaiku do we turn a bitch thread into a who has a crush on cervus. Jaiku FTW!!!! :-)
2 years, 2 months ago by CaffeineJunky
@malach
"If someone has altered what's in our database (for example, by deleting information that was fetched previously), then yes, items will be re-added the next time they are fetched."
Shouldnt it just ADD new info, instead of the one that is missing?
2 years, 2 months ago by BUGabundo
@BUGabundo - it's possible that it should, but if the older information is no longer available for our system to refer to, how do we know what's old and what's new?
2 years, 2 months ago by malach
lol ok stupid idea, flame me for it: because it is older?
u should respect the post date (if it exists on the feed, we all know that not always happens)
2 years, 2 months ago by BUGabundo
Which brings us back to Lee's original problem - posts being out of order seems likely, to me, to be related the way we're handling/honoring the post-date information in the feed.
2 years, 2 months ago by malach
I have also had problems with my RSS feeds from MSN live spaces and myspace.com. Any ideas?
2 years, 2 months ago by frontierscientist
@malach, I don't know where this idea that I've been unpatient and demanding has come from frankly. I've merely asked a couple of times what I should do next and if you've mangaged to make any progress. The whole thing has really been blown at of proportion as evidenced by the number of comments here. My point in pulling out my "tech journalist" credentials wasn't bragging. In fact, quite the opposite, I have been here before and I am more than willing to go through the process with you for however long it takes. I never said otherwise. How does my raising the issue and conducting a conversation about it make me a "squeaky wheel?" I never said my needs should be considered above and beyond anyone elses. This is no different than dealing with countless bugs in software that I've encountered over the years. I'm merely trying to work through a problem with tech support. @RickMeesham has overreacted and cast aspirations upon me that are completely unfounded. I'm not even sure what his relationship to Jaiku is other than being a member of the community but he sure has a strong emotional attachment to it. And what was so gosh darn difficult about figuring out what I was talking about? It was plain as day that the feeds were coming in out of order. Anyone could see that immediately. Your last response is perfectly reasonable. Let's see continue to see how this goes.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
@RickMeasham, let's agree to keep the personal attacks out of this and just concentrate on making Jaiku better okay?
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
I'm with you... if any one wants a fight or flamming go to #flames... lol
2 years, 2 months ago by BUGabundo
For the record, I really like Jaiku and see its potential. That's why I want this to work so badly.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
@lsherman: Yup, I regret declaring you to be a cry-baby. I retaliated in an emotional way to your assumption that as a writer you'd seen more tech problems than I had without even attempting to check my credentials. Accept my apologies.
You're being seen as a squeaky wheel because you're posting frequently, asking for updates and using phrases that are 'squeeks'. Phrases that my English-teacher-wife would call emotive language: "what a mess", "doesn't bode well", "feature is useless".
The reason I weighed into this in a manner that you feel was an over-reaction is primarily because I can't stand the stupid "fix it or I'm leaving" threat. That and I'm protective of other developers.
So let's just bury the hatchet, wait for the Jaiku dev team to take a look, and see where things go.
(My wife would also point out that you should be accusing me of 'casting aspersions' not 'casting aspirations', which means to cast strong desires to achieve something great .. which now I think about it would probably fit well in a D&D game. I'm guessing, as a writer, you know that and it was a hasty typo, so don't take this as any sort of attack)
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
@BUGabundo: I'm guessing that was an attempt at humor .. it doesn't work in real life and it doesn't work here. If two people are fired up at each other, you just need to give them space to sort it out between themselves.
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
Go to #jaikungfu and it's in the about panel (how did this get into this thread?)
2 years, 2 months ago by RickMeasham
<snip> [uuuuuhhh another idea for jku: EDIT POST] i know rick.
2 years, 2 months ago by BUGabundo
@RickMeashem: yes should have been aspersions. Quite early here in SF and I haven't had my tea yet. Apologize for the emotive language. I am a writer after all. You're right actually and I'll back off on that. And for the record, even if the RSS thing doesn't get fixed, I'm more likely to just remove it than leave Jaiku entirely. Even without that it has many advantages over Twitter and Pownce, at least at this stage of the game.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
@RickMeasham: As a technology journalist and early adopter,I do see many tech problems, perhaps not as many as you but I value my relationships with developers and have generally had good ones over the years. I have beta tested countless products and services so I'm quite familiar with this process and willing to see it through.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
@malach, I'm curious. Since I am leaving old feeds alone, will they just drop off the top eventually? How far back does Jaiku retain them?
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
One explanation, as promised :)
Way back in the mists of time (ie, early this year), before we were grouping entries, we were getting complaints from users about feed entries 'not appearing'. What this turned out to mean was that because entries were inserted into the overall timeline at the time they were posted on the originating site (ie, we were honoring the 'posted-at' field in the feed), that they appeared further back in the Jaiku timeline - sometimes, particularly for users who are either really active, or have a lot of contacts, not on the front page.
Because RSS is a pull, not a push method, there's no reliable way to get them them to appear on Jaiku immediately after posting.
Our solution for that, was to set the 'posted at' date to be the time at which it was fetched by us- this means that even if there are multiple hours between the time a post is made, and the time we fetch it, it will still appear on people's overviews.
(You'll note that while your Jaikus say "By lsherman 1 day, 2 hours ago", your feed items say "Fetched from del.icio.us/lsherman 4 hours, 26 minutes ago.").
The downside to this (which this issue has highlighted) is that grouped posts lose their order - their 'posted at' time is lost.
The fix for this involves some database structure changes, which can't be done while the site is live. Because of the amount of data involved, the structure changes would take a significant amount of time to carry out, so this is something that will have to be scheduled as part of an announced outage.
And, to answer your recent question, we don't remove posts of any sort - they just keep going back in time. We do, however, limit how far you can 'scroll' back.
2 years, 2 months ago by malach
Very informative. Thank you. Does this mean you will be making the structure changes required?
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
It's definitely not working right, so yes, it's something needs to be made to work right..
When, exactly, I can't tell you - for one thing, we haven't got it officially onto the roadmap yet, for another, we don't tend to talk about what's coming until it's arrived.
2 years, 2 months ago by malach
@malach, I look forward to the fix when it comes. Let me know if you need help testing.
2 years, 2 months ago by lsherman
@MomDeFrazzler - if you let me know (andrew@jaiku.com) which feed has stopped, I can look into it for you, see what's in the logs about it.
2 years, 2 months ago by malach